Thursday, June 11, 2009

Capitalism in Heaven?

This post is a response of sorts to Red's Pulpit Pundits Seek to Destroy...

That post itself I believe is an elongated response to the discussions we have had on my posts Abandoning Social Change, Sequel to Abandoning Social Change, and Destroying Christian Subculture.

While I honestly think Red is quite sincere in his viewpoints, I think perhaps he might be just a tad misguided in regards to some of his thinking.

Personally, the idea that is is Christ-like to show a support for war befuddles me. I seriously doubt that Christ Himself would ever approve of us human beings fighting against each other for any reason. It just does not fit the pattern in my opinion.

In his post, Mr Red quite eloquently spends time bashing a certain preacher, Keith Giles. Mr. Giles, however, does not have “contempt for the traditional Christian church” as Red puts it. He simply thinks, as I do, that there are many churches out there that are not preaching the message of Jesus and have spent far too much time preaching their political agenda.

As I said in one of those previous posts, Jesus was not a politician. It is okay for Christians to discuss politics, but preaching them from the pulpit is unnecessary.

Mr Giles does have a few opinions that I disagree with, particularly on the abortion issue, it is not the goal of Mr Giles to demoralize “the Christian world” however. I have no idea where that idea came from.

The bulk of Red’s post seems to be a comparison between the views of Giles and communism.

I think that there are people in our society that are so blinded in their capitalist viewpoints that they can not realize that the teachings of Jesus and the THEORY of PURE communism are almost identical.

I will explain by posing a question.

Do you think that capitalism exists in heaven?

I don’t think it does.

In fact, I think that if there IS any sort of economic system in heaven, it would be comprised of a system where the means of production and distribution are owned and controlled by everyone and not just a select few. This is what PURE communism is about. This is not however what Obama is trying to push on our society. He wants the government to control everything. That is not communism in its purest form. That is Stalinism.

I really can not fathom the idea that in heaven we will all be divided into groups of haves and have nots. Personally, that sounds more like hell to me. LOL!

There is probably more that I have to say about this but perhaps I will do it in a sequel.


  1. I used the term communism in general terms to include marxism, stalinism, Gilesism, Woody Guthryism, socialism, etc. I know that to true communists/stalinists, marxists, socialists/etc. splitting hairs is everything on this.

    Mr Giles may or may not be a socialist himself... or he may be just an innocent "useful idiot", only he knows for sure, but his suggestion that traditional Christians should not use their ideology to guide their political beliefs and that Christians should not act on their beliefs is absurd considering that is exactly what he himself is doing.

    As far as whether there is Capitalism in heaven or not... lol considering there is nothing physical in heaven to buy and or sell, I doubt it... it's just as possible as God being a communist I guess, but we aren't in heaven are we? We are on earth and capitalism and communism do exist.
    Pick one.

    There are a lot of things here on earth that probably don't exist in heaven... but I do love it when those on the left say Jesus and/or God are communists.

  2. The problem with using the word communism to describe marxism, stalinism, socialism is that it is a false assumption.

    Technically, communism is a "type" of socialism. Socialism is a very broad term.

    Communism IS a system where the means of production and distribution are owned collectively by everyone. Nobody has more money than the next guy. It is a system of sharing.

    Now, back to Mr. Giles.

    I don't think Giles is telling anyone not to let their Christian worldview guide their political beliefs or act on their beliefs. I don't think he is saying that at all. From what I am reading, he seems to be saying that the Christian Right, or whatever you want to call it, is more focused on politics than they are on Jesus and His message of love.

    And Jesus? If he was concerned about politics, he may or may not have been a communist but I guarantee you that he would not have been a capitalist.

    Can you honestly believe that Jesus would allow (if He were in charge that is) some people to have vast amounts of money while others had absolutely nothing?

    I don't think so. But then again, that is probably where you and I disagree. You seem to think that because some of what Jesus taught falls more into the conservative side of things, that EVERYTHING he taught was conservative. Hogwash!!!

    It seems to me that you and many others like to use Jesus' teachings only when it fits your own agenda but if it falls out of your agenda, you scream leftist and communist and don't bother to concentrate on His complete message.

  3. "Communism IS a system where the means of production and distribution are owned collectively by everyone. Nobody has more money than the next guy. It is a system of sharing."

    So everyone in Cuba and N Korea and Venezuela and China have the same amount of money... Kim Jong Il and Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro all have no more money than the poorest person in their countries?

    On what planet is that?

    You seem to have this romanticized version of communism that is not remotely connected to the real thing.

  4. And yet you think it is I that misunderstands communism.

  5. Dude. Really? Do you ACTUALLY read the stuff I write?

    Seriously. I swear it is like talking to my 4 year old sometimes.

    The social systems going on in Cuba, N Korea, etc.. are NOT communism for crying out loud.

    I have explained this time and time again.

    YOU are the one that misunderstands communism, communism in theory that is. No government. NO GOVERNMENT in our planet's existence has built an entire country around a purely communist society.

    Not the Soviet Union. Not Cuba. Not China.

    Damn, I hate repeating myself.

  6. Ohhh I see... there never in the history of the planet has been a communist country.. lol

    Now your just playing silly word games.

    Even the inventors (Stalin Lenin and Marx) of communism could NOT make it work... without invading other countries for their goods and resources that is.

    I understand communism quite well... like I said it is you that has this false romantic notion that is somehow fair and superior.

    Maybe your 4 year old is smarter than you are giving him/her credit for... ever consider that?

  7. Well. My 4 year old is pretty smart but sometimes I still have to repeat myself to make my point clear with him.

    Kind of like you.

    I am not going to waste my time anymore with you playing stupid word games.

    I will let this actual defintion of the word "communism" be my final thought on this matter.

    "a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole.

    THAT has never happened.

    The Soviet Union (and all other "communist" nations) were nothing more than totalitarian regimes. They were not communist.

    To be honest, I don't give a shit what you think pure communism is. I think you're wrong.

    There I'm done with this argument.

  8. You know what? I take that back. I can not leave an argument that way. I am a better person than that.

    I apologize for the vulgarity. That is so not right.

    Red, I humbly respect your opinion on what you think communism is.

    Putting it into perspective and making it quite literal. The Soviet Union, Cuba, China, N. Korea, etc....that IS what communism IS.

    However, that is not what communism is supposed to be.

    The fact of the matter is that I think (and I would expect you to respect my opinion as well..or at least hope that you would) communism, in theory, not in practice, is a perfect system. However, that perfect system will never work within the confines of our planet because human nature is flawed and would never accept that sort of social and economic system.

    Here in America, capitalism is what we have (for now) and that is what we as American citizens and we as Christians (well, some of us are anyway) must contend with. Like I said though, capitalism is what we have for now. If Obama gets his way, we will become more socialist.

    Now, for the record, socialism I do not support as a good system of government. The state should not own anything in my opinion. The state has proven ineffectual at every turn with things they have nationalized. Even in our own country.

    Strangely enough, if given the choice between capitalism and socialism (i know socialism is a broad term but i am talking about socialism in the "state controls everything" sense), i would take...gulp...capitalism....even though I strongly resent the system because I (again MY opinion, that it at that) I think capitalism is a system based on greed.

    Sorry again for the earlier vulgarity. Please accept my apologies and please forgive me. It's been a long hard day (although that is no excuse).

  9. dude... it's okay. Not to worry, I have to repeat myself to you over and over too.

    I'm glad to see that you would choose capitalism over the actual version of communism (not the pretend "what it's supposed to be" version)

    Take away the incentive you call "greed" (the desire to do better, earn more and provide more for your family) and you have solved the riddle of why communism DOESN'T work.
    It destroys the motivation to produce more... why bother you won't get rewarded for it.

  10. Say what you want... but "greed" motivates and communism/socialism etc... whatever you want to call it... demotivates individuals to the point of not being able to sustain itself.

  11. I had a discussion with Danny once about capitalism and I actually stated that we need a form of capitalism, or at least of the free market, because we as humans are greedy and it is said greed that motivates the vast majority of the population. I see this as a flaw, but it is also a fact.

    On the pure communism vs. theoretical communism debat…I have a punch line I use to describe anything that is a good idea in theory but fails in execution: “…it looks great on paper like communism and Episode 1.”

    It is true that pure communism and/or socialism has never worked nor been tried, but the same can be said for pure capitalism. That is why our system, one that mixes elements of capitalism and socialism, is the best thing going. Yes we have problems and yes we swing too far from one side to the other at times, but overall it is better than anything else that has been tried to date. IMHO at least.

  12. So are you greedy for wanting a better job, more pay and more time with your family?

    Are you greedy for wanting to make sure your family is taken care of first?

    Can you help others more if you are more successful or less successful?

    Are you greedy for not living on the side of a mountain top in a stick and rock shelter praying for food?

    There is a story that I really like...

    This fellow was stuck in quicksand and was sinking quickly... he prayed and prayed for God to save him from the quicksand. Soon a man came along and offered to use his horse to pull the fellow out with but the fellow said he was sure God would speak to him and tell him a way out. After a few more minutes another man with a long stick came along and held it out... but the fellow in the mud refused it saying he was waiting for God's rescue. Another guy came along who happened to have a rope but the fellow in the sinking sand again refused man's help wanting only to follow God's way out.
    After drowning in the quicksand he asked God why he didn't help him... God replied I sent 3 strong men to save you and you refused you idiot.

  13. Hmmm.....interesting points....let me reflect on them a bit...................................


    I don't think that a person is greedy if they are trying to make a better life for themselves or for their family.

    What I think is greedy is when a person tries to amass so much wealth that others are living in need and don't bother helping.

    I personally think that a person can help others whether or not they are wealthy or not. There are many wealthy people that do their part to help others in need. However, there are many wealthy people that don't give a crap about others and live with a 'it's mine, i worked for it and nobody else can have it' attitude.

    I also know others that are virtually broke most of the time and still somehow manage to help others.