Wednesday, June 10, 2009

Destroying the Christian Subculture

Here is another article that I found on Keith Giles' website.

It is titled Undercover Christian.

In it he talks about an article he read about a non-Christian that went undercover as a Christian university and discovered that he could not communicate with the conservative Christian culture there.

The point he is trying to make in the article is to question how Christians have gotten to a point where they can no longer relate with the rest of the human race.

Here is one of the quotes from the post:

[the Christian subculture] puts us on an island away from people we are commanded to love and serve."

Brilliant words in my opinion.

By the way, the title of this post comes from part of another quote in the post.

15 comments:

  1. okay... you finally got me. I put up my opinion on the good pastor Giles and the movement to destroy the traditional Christian culture.

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  2. Am I detecting a bit of sarcasm there Red?

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  3. Christian subculture Red. Not Christian culture.

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  4. A non-believer posed as a hard core Christian and found it hard to communicate with real Christians... lol duh.

    Do you think it might be remotely possible that those college students smelled a rat... I mean c'mon, I can just imagine how a non-believer would act trying to be a hardcore believer... very convincing I'm sure.

    The only "wall" around Christianity is the one built by non-Christians and Giles knows that.

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  5. I disagree.

    I know many groups of Christians that have built walls around themselves.

    Their rationalization is that when Jesus said to be "in the world and not of it" he meant something along the lines of well, you have to live here but you don't have to be a part of it.

    You might have not been exposed to those type of people but I know several groups of people like that. I even went to church for a while with people like that. That was part of the reason I stopped attending that church.

    The type of people I am talking about are people that are "so" Christian that they refuse to be a part of the culture that surrounds them. For example, the read only the Bible and only Bible related literature. Watch only religious movies or religious tv. Listen to only religious music. And only talk to other Christians and shun the rest of society. I know this is hard to believe. It sounds hard to believe and I am the one saying it. But believe me, there are people like that in this world.

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  6. "The type of people I am talking about are people that are "so" Christian that they refuse to be a part of the culture that surrounds them."

    You mean like Keith Giles and company... refusing to be a part of the current Christian culture (and/or subculture as you prefer).

    Kinda like pot calling kettle black.

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  7. no, you are not understanding my quote here.

    i said the type of people that refuse to be a part of the culture that surrounds them. in other words a Christian subculture that refused to associate with everyday people. the society as a whole.

    Keith (and company) are refusing to be a the part of THAT Christian subculture. they strive to be a part of society as a whole to effect change on a more global scale.

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  8. There is no such sub-culture. I know of zero Christians who lock themselves in their houses and only leave it to go to their Church on Sunday.

    This is complete BS.

    Christians are involved in their communities... we coach, we teach we are in other community groups like Kiwanis, Jaycees, Chamber of Commerce, we go to sporting events, out to eat... anywhere we want whenever we want.

    That is just baloney that Christians wall themselves in.

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  9. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  10. ooops... sorry 'bout that.

    And when I asked Giles exactly how he is breaking down those walls he talks about by having small groups of the same friends in his basement for Church every week... his comment was that he didn't know what I was talking about... "walls"?

    Sounds to me like they are building those walls not tearing them down.

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  11. I’ve really not wanted to get into this, but it looks like I’m going to anyway…

    First –
    Red said: “A non-believer posed as a hard core Christian and found it hard to communicate with real Christians... lol duh.”

    There is so much going on in this sentence it is staggering. I’m going to be blunt with my responses, so forgive me if they are curt.

    1. Who are you to say that Giles in a “non-believer”?
    2. Who are you to say who the “real Christians” are?

    The arrogance in this statement is mind boggling Red. You have just assumed the position of the all-knowing one who decides if someone is a “real Christian” or a “non-believer.” What a load of poodoo. Your opinion on the matter is no more or less valid than anyone else’s. You are not God, not are you Jesus so these are claims that you are not qualified to make. That having been said, those on the other side who make similar claims are just as arrogant.


    Second –
    Red said: “You mean like Keith Giles and company... refusing to be a part of the current Christian culture (and/or subculture as you prefer). Kinda like pot calling kettle black.”

    Like Steve said, I think you misinterpreted what he was saying (more on that in a bit), but you have brought up a very valid point. Those in the Christian Left have worked very hard at distancing themselves from those in the Religious Right. Much of this they have done in reaction to the RR, at least that is my theory, but they are building walls just as the RR has built walls. There are communities of Christians who only watch Christian TV, only listen to Christian music, and the last time they went to see a movie was when the Passion of the Christ was in theaters. These are also the folks that came out in large numbers in 2004 to vote for George W. Bush and for this like the gay marriage ban here in Oklahoma. They are very real and do a very good job at separating themselves from the rest of society.


    Third --
    Steve said: “Keith (and company) are refusing to be a the part of THAT Christian subculture. they strive to be a part of society as a whole to effect change on a more global scale.”

    While this is very true, they are also creating a new subculture that is very unfriendly, if not down right hostile, to those in the Religious Right. Robin Myers (or is it Robyn…I’m not sure) is another example of someone whose message is that of acceptance and open arms, but at the same time seems to shun those in the Religious Right. While I like Myers and a lot of his message, there are unintended consequences to what he is doing and part of that is the creation of a new Christian subculture.


    Third –
    Red said: “There is no such sub-culture...”

    Maybe you’re not familiar with the definition of a subculture Red because what you described in the rest of this response was just that.


    Fourth –
    Red said: “And when I asked Giles exactly how he is breaking down those walls he talks about by having small groups of the same friends in his basement for Church every week... his comment was that he didn't know what I was talking about... "walls"?”

    I haven’t gone to look at that discussion, but did you provide the context for the “walls” question? Depending on the direction of the conversation, that could have been a random question designed to shift the discussion or distract the person you’re questioning. Again I haven’t read the interaction between you two yet, but you have been known for trying to abruptly change directions in the conversation.

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  12. Dude. Seriously? Did you read what I said?

    Fine. You know of none those type of Christian. Goody for you. I do.

    In fact, since you did not read what I said I will quote myself back to you:

    "You might not have been exposed to those type of people but I know several groups of people like that."

    Seriously man, sometimes talking to you is like talking to my freaking 4 year old.

    And again, I am not talking about people don't ever leave their house until Sunday morning. Again, you are not paying attention to me. I am talking about people that choose to live their lives by shunning non-Christian society.

    Let me see if by repeating myself I can make it more clear for you.

    As an example, people that will make friends ONLY with people they know are Christians. People that ONLY listen to Christian music. In short, people that live their lives so sheltered to keep themselves from being exposed to society so that in turn they end up not being able to relate to society itself. Thus, having no contact with them. Thus, not making an impact on them.

    There, is that a little more clear?

    And before you say it. I don't care if you don't know people like that. Find. Good for you. I do.

    That isn't B.S. And I take serious offense at you basically calling me a liar.

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  13. Holy cow dave... you apparently jumped into this not understanding the context of what I was commenting on.

    1- I was talking about an article on Giles blog about a NON-BELIEVER posing as a CHRISTIAN at a Christian college... and the NON-BELIEVER said it was hard to communicate with the CHRISTIANS who were attending the school honestly... I said "duh" of course... people aren't that stupid.

    So next time get at least some of your facts and story straight before laying into me... I was quoting GILES dude... get off my arrogance BS and focus on your own.

    I didn't misinterpret ANYTHING Keith Giles wrote or said. I said it exactly as he did and we had a lengthy conversation at my blog on about 5 different posts... trust me I know where he's coming from by now.

    Yes.. if you go to one of his half dozen or more blogs you will find that there is a lot of discussion about the walls traditional churches put up and how they oppose this. I asked how you oppose a so-called wall of 500 or 600 people meeting in a public place open to everyone by holding meetings with the same 6 people in your basement twice a week.

    Sorry you couldn't handle me asking him such a touch question but he handled it just fine.

    You guys need to relax before you react.
    -red

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  14. Okay then I think you are "mistaken".

    Try this.

    Dress in your worst oldest raggediest clothes in your box of old clothes rub some grease or dirt on your face and hands and go to the nearest 1st Baptist Church with over 50 members next Sunday. Come in late and sit in the back by yourself... try your best to not talk to anyone and not feel welcome.
    Don't put any money in the collection plate and when the service is over try to get out the door without shaking at least 5 people's hands and having them say "welcome" with a big smile and mean it. At least one of them will offer help.

    It can't be done.
    You can't pull it off.

    You can take that to the bank... if you do this with proof and I am wrong I will send you $50.
    What say you?

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  15. You are going to find this very hard to believe.

    I attended a certain church that had well over 50 members at one time. A person of almost the exact specification as that (ratty clothes, dirty, sat in the back)........

    One of the deacons of the church went to the back of the church and asked the man to leave because the smell coming from him was distracting to the other members.

    I kid you not.

    Needless to say that is not the church that I attend any longer.

    You see Red. It isn't that either of us are wrong. It is just that we have each experienced different things in the church.

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